Evaluating Ohio State football’s NFL Draft development success under Ryan Day: Buckeye Talk Podcast (2024)

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- The 2024 NF Draft is just days away with Ohio State expecting to again be well-represented potentially on all three days, but how good has it been on at that happens annually?

On this episode of Buckeye Talk, Stephen Means, Nathan Baird and Andrew Gillis discuss the program’s ability to develop draft picks since Ryan Day took over as head coach. They evaluate the position groups and assign them star ratings based on their success in producing draft picks. The rankings were based on the number of draft picks and the overall success of those picks.

Thanks for listening to Buckeye Talk.

Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Stephen Means (00:05.439)

Welcome back to book I talk. I’m Stephen Means and that’s Nathan Barrett and that’s Andrew Gillis. And it’s officially 2024 NFL draft week. Ohio State once again, having some players who can consider in the NFL draft, which starts on Thursday night with the first round and then day two is draft round second and third and the rest of the draft is on Saturday. We’re all fully expecting Ohio State to continue its run of first round draft picks.

This year they’ve had at least one every single year that Ryan Day has been the head coach. Something crazy would have to happen for that to not continue. We’ll be doing a prediction of how many guys will be getting drafted in this year’s 2024 NFL draft later this week. But we’re starting off the week with something that’s, I think a little interesting, we thought about doing it a couple of months ago, but maybe thought it fit better doing it, going into the draft week. So here’s what we’re doing here. In the Ryan Day era.

There have been 31 players drafted. There will be 32 after Thursday night, unless. Yeah, I don’t even know what that looks like. There was so as of right now there are 31 players in Ohio State history with Ryan Day as its head coach who have been drafted. That’s from the 2020 draft up until the 2023 draft. There’s another nine being considered in the 2024 draft. So that could get up to a 40 number by the end of Saturday though it might be may fall.

short of that of that 31 that’s been drafted so far, nine have been first round draft picks. And so what we’re going to do here is we’re just going to evaluate position by position.

Ohio State’s NFL Draft development during the Ryan Day era. Once again, Ryan Day took over in 2019. So this is NFL drafts 2020 through 2024. If you want to consider those guys and how they’re being evaluated into your score of things and how we’re doing this is it’s kind of like five star four star three star two star one star I don’t think anybody’s gonna get a one star. But anywhere along that range of things is how we’re going to talk about we just do grading so much I wanted to change up the grading skill.

Stephen Means (02:06.539)

This time around, we’re just going to go back and forth. It’s not a draft, but just for the sake of conversation and structure, Nathan’s going to go first and what his highest grade highest rated group is. And we’re just going to go back and forth from there. So Nathan, you’re up and, uh, tell me why you didn’t have wide receivers. And number one is your highest rated draft developers.

Nathan Baird (02:33.51)

Uh, no, obviously wide receiver was number one. Like there’s no other, there is one other option. I think there’s, there’s two things that lead this conversation, but, but wide receiver is clearly number one. And then we’re, so we’re going in the Ryan day era. So starting in 2020, which he gets, I guess, partial credit for, for that year. But you know, he’s in the program before that he’s doing things with the, the quarterbacks that obviously set the stage for the success that they’ve had with receivers. So I think this is the one position where. Regardless of the year he gets maybe, well,

one of two positions where he gets a little, um, that where that credit is deserved, but you know, three number one picks in the last two drafts, the first round picks, I should say, four, if you include Jameson Williams, which we’re not, but let’s, you know, throw that on there as an asterisk and they’re about to have another one in Marvin Harrison Jr. Um, this is, you can’t ask for better than this. Everybody you send to the draft now is a first pick.

As a receiver unless they leave unless you’re Julian Fleming and you go somewhere else unless you’re James Williams to go somewhere else you’re still a first-round pick and We fully expect that there obviously Marvin Harris the jr. Will be a first-round pick next on Thursday And we think that a year from now Emeka Buka is probably gonna be in that conversation and in a year after that you could be talking about Cardinal Tate You could be talking about Brandon in this we don’t know. It just feels like this is a perpetual thing and Right now they are the standard. That’s why they have to be a five

because they are the standard that you would judge everyone else against. You would if you’re whatever program out there and you say, we’re doing pretty good at receiver. You’re like, oh, really? Have you had three in the last two years and another one and then another one? And OK, no. So we’re probably only a four. Like, that’s how it goes. I think Ohio State is the one that’s sort of wrecking the curve a little bit at producing NFO receivers right now.

Stephen Means (04:25.727)

82% of people gave Ohio State five stars when I sent this out to the Texas 614 three five three one five four players drafted so far. KJ Hill with two hundred and twentieth to the Chargers in 2020. And in since then, as Nathan Manz mentioned, only first round draft picks, Garrett Wilson was tenth to the Jets in twenty two. Chris Olabe went right after that at eleven to the Saints in twenty two to as well. If you want to mention Jameson Williams going twelve that year to the Lions. OK, you can. But he didn’t finish here. And then Jackson Smith, the Jigba.

going 20th to the Seahawks in 2023 as wide receiver one in that draft. Mind you, while Chris and Garrett were two and three. And as you mentioned, we’re expecting Marvin Harrison Jr. to maybe be the highest drafted of that group. The first top five pick for Ohio State at wide receiver in the modern day era. But then David Johnson could potentially get drafted as well. So they could have six by the end of Saturday evening. And then as you mentioned, Mecca Buka coming down the line.

a carnal take coming down the line. Brandon Dennis, Jeremiah Smith is probably going to be wide receiver one in his draft. The way this is going so far, Chris Henry Jr. is a five star recruit in the next draft. I’m not sure Andrew when the next time we’re gonna go through a spring where Ohio State doesn’t have at least one first round draft picked.

Andrew (05:41.504)

Yeah, I don’t know. Like, because it’s in 25, it would be a Mecca. And like you just kind of run down like what years it could be. And in 25, it could be a Mecca. And then in 26, that’s setting up for Carnell Tate. 27 is a Jeremiah, like 27 is Jeremiah Smith. Yeah.

Stephen Means (05:48.825)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan Baird (06:02.19)

It, it, the tricky thing is it’s, it’s relative to the draft class too. It’s relative to how much other talent is in there. You know, Colonel Tate has a really good career, but there’s like five guys who have, like this year’s draft class, like you’ve got, you know, the three guys that are at the top this year pushes everybody else down.

Andrew (06:08.28)

Of course, of course.

Stephen Means (06:08.352)

Right.

Andrew (06:18.172)

Three Elite, yeah. The thing about Wide Receiver that did kind of trip me up as I was looking at this was it’s kind of funny in a weird way, like how recent this looks. Like it’s like, because you look at it and you’re like, Ohio State’s had great receivers for forever, it feels like. And I mean, you go back to like the 2018 team and you’re talking like Paris, Campbell, KJ Hill, Terry McLaurin. Now, like obviously Terry McLaurin is a dude in the NFL.

Stephen Means (06:20.547)

Right.

Andrew (06:47.74)

He was a third round pick. If people knew what Terry McLaurin was going to be, he was going to be a first round pick. So it’s like, you’re talking, okay, there’s a second rounder in there, Paris Campbell, KJ Hill, who does count in this kind of Ryan Day debate or Ryan Day conversation. He was a seventh round pick, kind of a later guy, Terry McLaurin, a mid-round guy. It’s not super long ago that was the conversation about Ohio State’s receivers. And then

I mean, one specific hire happened. And now all of a sudden you’re talking about, uh, you know, three top 10 guy or three top 20 guys, um, in, in two years, it’s, it is a little funny how it feels like Ohio state has had great receivers for forever and it hasn’t really been the case. Um, you know, they’ve, you know, there’s always been, you know, solid receivers has always been good receivers, but like this absolute war machine where we’re talking about it as.

the five star that it is, is relatively new, right? Like, we’re talking about this in relatively new terms here. This isn’t something that it’s like, ah, well, Iowa produces offensive linemen every year, or Alabama produces great defensive backs every year. This is a relatively new thing. And it was just interesting to look at it and go and like, really? KJ Hill in 2020, and then nobody else.

and then nobody in 21. They didn’t ever receive or draft it in 21. And you’re going through the list and you’re like, huh, just interesting.

Stephen Means (08:21.483)

Well, they didn’t to be fair, they didn’t have any eligible receivers in twenty one.

Andrew (08:25.3)

Right, I understand, but like we’re talking about it now where it’s like every year you’re gonna have a first round guy, yeah. And Chris Alave could, yes, yes. Yeah.

Nathan Baird (08:28.354)

Chris... If Chris Elavi had left after 2020, they would have had a first round pick. Or they would have had a pick. Maybe not a first, but a first, a pick for sure.

Stephen Means (08:35.523)

Yeah.

Chris and Garrett in that 22 trial for the first round draft picks for Ohio State at wide receivers since Ted Ginn and Anthony Gonzalez in 2007. We’re talking about the wide receivers the way we talked about cornerbacks during the urban Miami era when they have like Bradley Roby and Gary on Conley and Eli Apple and Jeff Okuda and Denzel Ward all in this short period of time. Though it’s probably a step past that make it because it’s not letting up because even Larry Johnson. Yes, you had Joe Joey Bosa, Nick Bosa and

draft picks, but there’s not other first round draft picks sprinkled in there as well. It’s those three dynamite prospects. And then a lot of pretty good day two guys, the consistency of guys being at this level is a combination of two things. One, the overall value of the position that helps when you have these deep wide receiver classes every single year that helps. But then also a testament to like what we’re seeing on the field on Saturday is we’re seeing NFL receivers turn into wide receiver ones in the NFL.

Nathan Baird (09:37.314)

Well, but those runs have ended before. The cornerback run did end, and in that case it was because of a coaching change, Kerry Combs leaves. And the defensive end run ended, and in that case it wasn’t a coaching change, it was just, it ended. They thought they were recruiting in other guys, other five star guys, top 100 guys, who would be able to strive and reach that level, and they didn’t. They haven’t. They’ve had very solid careers and they haven’t.

Now, the other thing to keep in mind, and I had some trouble divorcing myself from this completely, that’s making this list. Again, we’re talking about 2020 to 2023. You can bend it ahead into the one that’s coming in a couple of weeks. We can talk about Marvin Harrison Jr. We’ll talk about Mike Hall Jr. later, Cade Stover. There’s some other guys that you can sort of include in what we’re doing here. But there would be more defensive end draft picks to be talking about if...

If Sawyer and Tumaloa had come out this year, and so I’ve been trying to kind of keep that in mind at a couple of positions Where it’s like okay Yes, it’s only X number of people in these five years if you’re including this year But it would be this number if these guys had come out and we can reasonably project that they would have been Day one day two day three, whatever. So I’ve been keeping that in mind a little bit that That those so

Stephen Means (10:37.844)

Sure.

Nathan Baird (11:04.674)

So those runs are sometimes cyclical, sometimes they fluctuate. What I think is interesting at receiver though, that sets it apart from defensive end and cornerback is that it is more tied into the essence of the program right now, I think. Like you’re trying to go get great players at all these positions. And yes, you can have BIA, yes, you can have these rush ends that are going off. It also helps. Like we talk about

Nick and Joey Bosa, like they’re separate guys, but the connection helps, right? Like you kind of got a two for one on those guys. So that skews a little bit what that run was to some extent. But with the way receiver and quarterback are sort of working in tandem right now. Like you keep bringing in great quarterbacks, you keep bringing in great receivers, and each one of those attracts the next group of that opposite position. Like...

Every quarterback you try to go recruit, you can turn around and say, when two years, these are the receivers are going to be in that room. You heard of these guys, like all the five stars in the country, or like two or three of them that were already in our room. Like they’re going to be here. You can come throw to those guys. Nobody else can offer you that. And you can go say the same thing to the receivers that you’re trying to recruit and say, hey, we’ve already got a commitment from the best quarterback or the number two, three quarterback in that class. You know, you’re going to have a potential Heisman contender throwing you the ball.

Stephen Means (12:16.239)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan Baird (12:29.418)

every year that you’re at Ohio State. Like those two things can now build off of each other and maybe sustain, maybe gives them a little bit of protection against the run dropping off in a way that you don’t, when you’re more drafting or recruiting these positions individually, which I feel like is still more, even as much as like pass rush and coverage play off of each other, I don’t feel like it’s as copacetic as it is with receiver and quarterback.

Stephen Means (12:53.125)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (12:58.412)

Yeah, there’s not a.

a marriage that’s already pre existing with those two things. I mean, it’s not quite the same this year, but the last two guys who took over as first year starting quarterbacks were taking over an offense that had veteran former top 105 star wide receivers who were already first round graphic, you know, worthy. Right. I mean, CJ Stroud took over. He had Garrett Wilson, Chris Olaba, who were already established as maybe the top two guys in the country. And then Jackson Smith, Nick, Nick became along kind of the same thing with Kyle McCord, having Marvin Harrison Jr. and a Maccabooke already established.

Julian Fleming was coming along. He was actually, no, he was pretty established too. He just wasn’t established as a first rounder. Not quite the same math this time around, but I mean, Mecca Buca is still here and there’s already good things being said about Jeremiah Smith and Cardinal Tayden Brennan in it, so we’ll see with those situations, but that is a good point. And so, but also to your point of does it ever stop because all runs end, we’ve seen how they’ve ended before.

It’s just you miss on a couple of guys. And I wouldn’t even say miss because Zach Harrison was a pretty good football player. He just wasn’t.

A five star top 10 player in the country turned first round draft pick top 10 draft pick while with the cornerbacks, it was more of a coaching change, really threw some things off here. And now we’re getting back to they’re kind of back on schedule here with Tim Walton. And I am wondering with the wide receiver recruiting, what comes first. And maybe potentially we start seeing cracks in this. Isn’t it Brian Hartline leaves, or maybe he’s just wrong on a cycle, or maybe he just gets to a cycle where none of the top guys want to come because they

Stephen Means (14:32.325)

see how loaded the room is. And so that might throw off your wide receiver production a year and a half from now when those guys are on the field. So that’s number one wide receiver. I think that was a foregone conclusion being number one. Andrew, I’m assuming that was number one on your board as well. So what’s number two on your board?

Andrew (14:50.144)

Yeah, certainly not a foregone conclusion. I actually had a lot of debate about, um, where to put quarterback and quarterback was next, um, quarterback is right there with, with five stars. Cause obviously, you know, you have CJ Stroud last year and number two overall, you have Justin Fields two years prior, 11 overall. And the reason is because it’s not like receiver where it’s just, Oh, here comes the assembly line.

one year you’re going to have two first round picks and the next year you’re going to have one and the next year you’re going to have two and the next year you’re going to have two. That’s not the way quarterback works, right? Like if you have a first round quarterback that is a sophom*ore or second year player, everybody else is leaving. It’s not like you’re just sending out multiple quarterbacks in the same draft class. So that’s about as good as you could do. Like quarterback is such a unique position that

There is only, you’re only sending one of them out and you’re not sending one of them out every year. So yeah, you only have two of them. Yeah, you’re not, you know, sending them out every year but that’s just the way quarterback works. And it was right there, I think, because as you map out quarterback, I mean, how many times would, or how many programs across the country would look at Ohio State’s quarterback room and be like, oh my God, if we could have.

Harley, Justin Fields into CJ Stroud. Are you kidding me? And like, I understand this isn’t part of this argument, but like, Dwayne Haskins is in that room as well. Like, you’ve been running through great talent year after year after year after year at quarterback, but it doesn’t mean the NFL draft picks are coming out every year. So yeah, quarterback was right there because it’s such a unique drafting look because of everything that I just said. So.

Yeah, I thought quarterback. I actually had a lot of debate as to whether I should put quarterback first just because of the The importance of the position number one kind of the development of it But then two because you look at it and go, you know what? So what they’ve only had two guys go their first round picks and I understand we’re just looking at like where you know How these dudes got there, but they’re pretty good football players like CJ’s like they’re both starting quarterbacks in the nfl, right? Like

Andrew (17:09.668)

CJ shroud was awesome this past year and like they put out really talented players and putting out two first round quarterbacks in 21 and in 23 is about as you could is about as good as you could be doing in this type of exercise for any program in the country. Forget Ohio State like for any program in the country. So could there be a rut maybe coming forward if we were to do this from you know.

24 to 27, 28? Yeah, maybe, but not right now. They’ve got two elite quarterbacks that have gone through the draft. So yeah, this was like a five star, but I think if we’re doing this in that star rating, I think we’re talking like Aaron Scott versus Edgar Houston, right? Ain’t a lot of delineation between these two.

Stephen Means (18:03.159)

So obviously quarterback, their argument is always going to be quality over quantity, just because as you pointed out, there’s I mean, you just aren’t sending it at the same volume that these other positions can send them through. So how I, how I sent it out to the Texas was they’ve had three starting quarterbacks so far in the Ryan Day era. Two of them, Justin Fields, 11th to the Bears in 2021. CJ Strout, second to the Texans in 2023 were first round draft picks, while Kyle McCord, one year starter, and it ends up in the transfer portal. He’s now at Syracuse.

Nathan quarterback was the second highest on my list as well. But I gave it a five star, but. I viewed wide receiver as like closer to Jeremiah Smith, five star while I viewed maybe, you know, quarterback more as a to Andrews point, like Edgocuse and Aaron Scott, five star. But you’re a five star, but you’re like the 17th best player in the country. But but it’s still good. But I think the thing that knocked it.

was the Kyle McCord situation that had to matter a little bit here. Yes, you’ve had two back to back, but also the last guy who had the job. Not only did he not keep the job, but he transferred somewhere else. So like, quite frankly, is a lower level program. So when you’re trying to split hairs between that and another program who is in the middle of, as we said earlier, we’re not really sure when the next time they aren’t going to have a first round draft pick is. I think that was a differential for me.

Nathan Baird (19:35.442)

Yeah, that didn’t matter to me. Um, you’re just, you’re not going to have a first round pick. Every quarterback you have is not going to be a first round pick forever. Like no, no program does that. Like there’s no, nobody does that. You’re going to have occasionally look at Georgia, Georgia just went back to back national championships and the guy was wherever he was fourth round pick for Stetson Bennett, um, something like that. Like it’s, it, it’s not going to, you, how state at some point is going to have to, yes, get back to that level of quarterback play.

Stephen Means (19:54.243)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan Baird (20:04.93)

There’s also a point where Ohio State’s gonna probably win a championship with a guy who isn’t a first round quarterback anymore. I think both of those things are still true in the modern era of college football. To me the deciding factor between and I gave them both five stars as well. But to me, the deciding factor for the receivers is it’s all home grown. Like Justin Fields, Ohio State gets credit, meaning he had two great years here and Ryan Day’s offense.

Stephen Means (20:26.813)

Hmm.

Nathan Baird (20:31.126)

put him in a position to have those two great years and be a first round pick and showcase himself. But all these receivers are homegrown. In fact, they even sent one somewhere else and he still went in the first round. That to me is the, it’s just the overwhelming regularity now that you can expect. There’s no way to, I don’t think, give less than five to the quarterbacks. Like you had two back to back, there’s only been four drafts. Like, and if you’re gonna start tacking on things in the future as kind of an asterisk, let’s tack.

Dwayne Haskins onto the back end of that as an asterisk. It was only here one year and is a first round pick. So you had three first round picks in a row. They aren’t, I don’t think, quite the standard for quarterback development yet because until Stroud they hadn’t hit in the NFL. So receiver gets the edge there. But Andrew’s right, like it’s not, and you’re both right, like it’s not that big of a golf. I think they both have to be, if you’re going by this star rating, they both have to be five star positions.

Stephen Means (21:30.863)

I don’t really think there is a standard for quarterback recruiting out there because it’s just such a volatile position at times in both development and in value. Yeah, that like, I don’t know, everybody has an era of it, right? USC had that run in the early 2000s with Carson Palmer and Matt Lennard. And like now they’ve got Caleb Williams coming down the pipeline. Alabama had their run, Ohio State’s in the middle of theirs as well. There’s probably some other schools, I forget Texas. Maybe it’s had a run as well. But there’s no like concrete.

Nathan Baird (21:39.062)

Well now it is, for sure.

Stephen Means (22:00.671)

When you can do a running back you, you can do a wide receiver you, tight end you all the way down the line. I don’t know if there’s a concrete quarterback you who has just been consistent for time after time after time, just because of how that position is. But I’m with you guys. The textures are a little bit all over the place with this one. They had the highest score, second highest score, 3.97 overall, but that’s cause only 44.59. People gave them a five star. And I do think some of that is.

mixture of different things. I’m not sure what that, maybe some of it is just the, I think maybe they put more. Yeah, yeah.

Nathan Baird (22:31.778)

That’s all McCord. That’s all McCord. That’s all people giving like really ripping or taking the score down just because Kyle McCord didn’t come here and in one year as a starter become an NFL draft pick. I quibble with that.

Stephen Means (22:40.792)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (22:48.171)

And I think some of it is because, yeah, I don’t agree. I don’t, I’m not saying I agree with him. He’s telling me with our texture, say four, three, four, three, five, oh. Yeah, I do think some of it is the fact that Kyle McCord has been associated with Ohio State longer than the other two other guys who started here. If we’re going to being frank about it. So they’ve had their hands on him the longest. He was committed for almost two years. And then obviously he was in the program for three years. And it felt like if you feel like as a fan,

Andrew (22:49.4)

That’s not, yeah, that’s, I don’t, I disagree.

Nathan Baird (22:53.72)

Love our textures. Love our textures. Disagree.

Stephen Means (23:15.903)

You should have got more out of a guy who was a five-star recruit, who you’ve basically been associated with for almost six years. Then I understand that. I don’t, it’s not, for me, it would not have been enough to dock them a full star in this situation. It was just for me, when I’m splitting hairs between two positions that have clearly shown they can develop first round drafts, it’s what put wide receiver number one. I wouldn’t have gone as far as they went.

Nathan Baird (23:37.942)

I suppose it’s also come Accord’s decision, ultimately not to be here another year, trying to be a draft pick. The other thing I would say is, if you’re gonna knock him, knock on his feet for that, I think you have to give him extra credit for the fact that CJ Stroud was taken number two overall, and that was too low.

Stephen Means (23:42.319)

True.

Nathan Baird (23:55.67)

Like now it looks like they got that wrong. The team that was drafting number one, got it wrong. And the team that was drafting number two got a gift. Like that’s how good he is already. So that to me again, it has to matter. Like the heights of the height. You could argue right now that the quarterback, but what he’s done, I know Garrett Wilson was rookie of the year, but C.J. Starr was rookie of the year as a quarterback. And you can see what difference he makes to that franchise.

Stephen Means (23:56.416)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (24:00.181)

Yeah.

Nathan Baird (24:24.51)

and its success now for the next half of a generation. Like, as long as they want him. Like, he might be, if they win a Super Bowl in Houston, he is a franchise-changing player. And you could almost argue that because of that, they should be higher than the receivers.

Stephen Means (24:42.543)

CJ Stroud alone is, there’s a chance he might be the most important Houston, like 20 years from now, depending on how this all plays out for him, to your point, if he wins a Super Bowl, you’re putting him up there with like some of the Astros guys, Akeem Olajuwon, when you’re talking about most important sports figures in Houston history, if that dude just wins a Super Bowl with the Houston Texans.

Andrew (25:03.664)

I don’t think CJ Stroud is going to cheat to win a Super Bowl, so I guess we’d have to maybe go look at that.

Stephen Means (25:08.903)

I mean, this is great Astros before the cheating scandal, though. This that’s. The point I’m making is, I mean, we’re talking about a rookie quarterback who won a playoff game. And now the Texans are all in on this guy. And it’s like, hey, is this the guy who’s going to knock off Patrick Mahomes now? That’s where CJ Stroud is. So congratulations to CJ. We’re not really talking about you that much, though. I will pose this to the Texas, though. 614-350-3315 and just share your thoughts here.

Nathan Baird (25:11.786)

Yeah, Nolan Ryan, you’ve heard of Nolan Ryan?

Andrew (25:14.143)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Nolan Ryan, Craig Biggio.

Nathan Baird (25:19.822)

Jeff Bagwell.

Stephen Means (25:38.359)

Because to Nathan’s point, I do think a lot of this is McCord. If Kyle McCord had gone to another program that we know is an established college football playoff program, how would that have changed how you voted in something like this? Because Nathan, you brought up Jamison Williams before Jamison Williams transferred from Ohio state and he went to Alabama.

which is like another national championship caliber team who just needed wide receivers. And he was immediately their number one wide receiver. Joe Burrow went to LSU, whose standard is like they should be trying to win national championships. That’s not quite the way we view Syracuse. And I am wondering from our techs, our 614, 350, 3315, the fact that that’s where Kyle McCord ended up. How much did you get that?

Nathan Baird (26:21.23)

Thanks for watching!

Stephen Means (26:21.783)

kind of shape how you voted in this thing. So just send your thoughts on that, if that mattered to you, 614-350-3315.

Nathan Baird (26:30.018)

Let me ask another quick one, just to kind of give us, how low would Jackson, Smith and Jigba have had to fall last year for us not to give wide receiver a five still, especially with Marvin Harrison Jr. about to go in the top five picks most likely. Like I think a second round pick for Jackson still has this a five for me. And so I think when you’ve had two back-to-back first round quarterbacks, including one that you went and found in high school

Stephen Means (26:41.455)

Hmm

Stephen Means (26:55.391)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan Baird (26:59.734)

developed and sent off on your own. McCord alone doesn’t knock that out of five. Kyle McCord might still end up in the NFL too. So that’s sort of a like TBD on that. Not saying, I’m not predicting him to have great NFL success, but the idea that he could be an NFL draft pick is on the table.

Stephen Means (27:12.463)

True.

Stephen Means (27:24.159)

No, he might end up being a draft pick by the end of the day. In fact, he played at a level that he’s a draftable quarterback. He just didn’t play the level that was a first round draft pick. OK, Nathan, final pick of the first round. We’re doing three rounds of three because that’s how many positions there are. So, Nathan, you’re up. Who is the next highest on your list? This is where this is actually gets interesting, by the way, because I’m pretty sure everybody had wide receiver in quarterback one and two in whatever order.

Andrew (27:46.789)

Yeah.

Nathan Baird (27:52.398)

So we’re gonna do all offensive line together. Okay. My next highest then, I only had a couple of fours. I found a lot of threes. And I thought that was an interesting dynamic that maybe just deserves some conversation on its own. That maybe that explains why the Ohio State success in this era hasn’t been just a little bit better. So as far as, so.

Stephen Means (27:55.116)

Yes.

Nathan Baird (28:23.266)

There was only one, there was only two other groups and I had actually split up the offensive line that I gave a four to. So I’m gonna throw tight end out here. And I gave them a four. And it’s because it’s not a position. So I calibrated this by looking at what other position, what other.

programs are doing because I didn’t want this to just be, well, here’s what I think Ohio state should be doing. They should just have first rounders every year at every position, right? Like that’s not realistic. You have to actually go out and compare it to what is happening in the real world. So for each position, I looked at what Michigan and Georgia have done in the same time period, because there you’ve got your main rival and you’ve got the national standard setter in this period. Michigan in this same time period has had one.

Stephen Means (28:47.961)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan Baird (29:15.826)

second round tied in. Georgia has had two thirds and two sixths. And Ohio State, and now they’re obviously about to have a first round pick in Bowers. But for Ohio State, they’ve had a fifth round pick, a third round pick, and Cade Stover is going to be potentially a second day pick, maybe early third day pick, right? So based on especially the Ohio State standard of the position and the fact that this isn’t a program that should draw.

the elite of the elite tight end prospects necessarily, I found myself rounding that up to a four.

Stephen Means (29:56.395)

There’s a level of just. What’s a real I love the words you use realistic. What’s a realistic expectation for a position? You have to be considered almost. I hate the word generational sometimes to be used so much, but. You’re an outlier. If you’re a titan and you’re drafted in the first round sometimes, right? Kyle Pitt’s going that high. When you look at the value for that position, probably wasn’t a good idea, but he was an outlier. Brock Bowers is the same way. There have been some others along the way.

or view it the same way. But typically you’re a day two draft pick as a titan and that’s fine. So when you put it in that perspective, so far Ohio State has had two tight ends drafted. Luke Farrell went 145th to the Jaguars back when Urban Meyer was in his first year as the head coach in 2021. The following year, Jeremy Rucker goes one-on-one to the Jets in 2022. And now you’ve got Cade Stover on deck who might be the first top 100 pick of this era though. Jeremy Rucker right outside of that. So maybe you can even include him in this situation, but.

For me, they were also third, Nathan, because realistic expectations for what the development should be, but then also, I think with Titan specifically, how do they get used in his offense?

Right. I don’t know how often they’re going to use a tight end at a level that Florida use Kyle Pitts or Georgia use Brock Bowers or Iowa use Sam Laporta or any of the other tight ends they’ve had over the recent years, Andrew, where it’s a realistic expectation that, oh, that guy’s going to be a first round draft pick or maybe even a top 40 pick simply because tight ends at Ohio State don’t get used that way. So they’re probably not even recruiting tight ends in that manner. Right. What Ohio State have recruited Brock Bowers, maybe

Sure. Just cause he’s a really good player. But would they have used rock Bowers the way Georgia used rock Bowers where after three years we’d have turned them into a first round draft pick? I don’t think so. And like, I understand like, you don’t, maybe you don’t agree with that, Andrew, but this offense has clearly shown us who you got to throw the ball to the tight ends or the wide receivers and running backs. Most years it’s been the wide receivers in the running backs. Caged over made them not throw the ball to the running backs. Where’d you have tied in that Andrew?

Andrew (32:05.5)

I had him down a little bit actually, so this could get interesting. Yeah, I had him down. I actually had three stars for tight end. I think it’s a perfectly fine position. I and I would even call it like a three star that you’re probably talking like, yeah, you know what? Like with a good with a good seven on seven camp, you’re bumping up to a four star because some dude at 247 arrivals bumps you up. Right. Like you’re right there. But.

I had them down because you’re right, it is expectations. I do think though that you cultivate your offense to kind of what you got. And if Ohio State had Sam Laporta or if Ohio State had Michael Mayer or if Ohio State had Dalton Kincaid, like the three tight ends who kind of went from like 28 to 35 last year, like.

You’re working them in more like that’s just it’s just the way it is. I understand you might have like three great weapons at wide receiver, but they’re getting the ball there. You know, you’re not throwing the ball to them 18 times a year. If you have a player that, you know, in the right system could go 28th overall, right? Like if you have Michael Mayer on your team or Sam Laporta on your team, or I’m not even going to say Kyle Pitts on your team, but like if you have a guy like that, you are working them in more. It’s not.

You know what, hey, we just got these great receivers, so tough luck, tight end, sir. You’re not getting the ball ever. You know, I just, I think it’s relative. Um, I think a day two pick and a day three pick is fine. Um, I mean, and then you throw in Kate Stover, probably going to be a day two pick. So you got two day two picks and a day three pick. That’s fine. I think it’s, it’s solid. Um, you know, especially at tight end in this offense, you know, like you said,

tight end like Michael Mayer, Sam Laporte, Dalton Kincaid, and then there’s the other guy from there’s another guy. There’s another name I’m forgetting from last year’s draft. But like everybody talked about last year’s tight end class being great and being elite. And those dudes were like, maybe they could sneak into the end of the first round. We’re talking early second round. Like it’s just the value of the position is differently. So yeah, you do have to wait it a little bit differently because the 28th overall pick is a tight end might be the first tight end off the board.

Andrew (34:30.404)

the 28th pick overall at receiver might be like the sixth receiver off the board. So you do kind of have to wait it differently. So I did do that, but I just thought it was fine. I just thought, you know, I just, I just kind of mapped this out and kind of what they were going in and I went, you know what, this is, this is fine.

Nathan Baird (34:46.062)

I said, Dane Bruegler from the Athletico, I think does a good job as an NFL draft analyst. He did a seven round mock this week. He had Stover going middle of the fourth round. So I’m maybe backing a little bit off of him being a, a day to pick. I think he still could maybe creep up into the, into the third round. We’ll see. But again, that kind of that calibration I was talking about before, because I think we think of Michigan as being more of like the blue collar, rough and tumble playing style, and maybe they are.

Andrew (34:50.118)

Very good.

Stephen Means (34:54.863)

Mm.

Nathan Baird (35:16.018)

You would expect maybe they are developing even more tight end talent. Schumacher went in the second round last year. That was the first time they’d had a tight end go in the first four rounds since 2003. It’d been 20 years since they had a tight end go in the first four rounds. So he did it last year. So. Now, Ohio State isn’t like blowing that standard off the field, but again, relative to everybody else. And then I think when you taxed over onto the end of this, now when you start talking about, oh, this is going to be their third.

Andrew (35:22.768)

maker those.

Nathan Baird (35:45.41)

tight end picked in the top five rounds of the past five drafts.

Again, relative to what Ohio State needs from that position, I think that’s pretty solid.

Stephen Means (35:57.971)

Brock Bowers is going to be the third first round draft pick at tight end since the 2020 draft with the other one being Kyle Pitts to the point of talking about value to. OK, those are our first three. Obviously wide receiver and quarterback being number one and number two in that situation. Tight end amongst the Texers. Two point nine overall with their vote kind of all over the place as well. Fifty four point zero five percent of the voters put it at three star, which I think is on par with what we’re talking about here. Three star low four star situation. Those are our first three. We’re going to take a quick break here

more into evaluating Ohio State as NFL draft developers here on Buck Rides Hog.

Get the text 614-350-3315. Just share your thoughts about how you went about this process and voting in this process and how you evaluated Ohio State NFL draft development ability under Ryan Day over the first five years of his tenure here as a head coach. So far we’ve talked wide receiver, quarterback, and tight end as our three highest. Andrew, you are up with our fourth highest on the board, but just whatever that is next highest on your board, where’d you go?

Andrew (37:04.284)

Yeah, well, I mapped this out and it was like, I felt like a scientist that like came to a hypothesis and was like, there’s no way. And I had to run it a couple of more times. I don’t think this is a high four star prospect. I would put this outside of the top a hundred. I had the offensive line next. I looked at, I was very surprised to look at this, but I think

Check the statistics. You had a first round pick in 2023, Paris Johnson, sixth overall. Then every year you’ve had eight draft picks from 2020 to 2023. So you’re averaging two draft picks per year. That’s pretty good. Like two draft picks on your offensive line is pretty good. Josh Myers, second round pick in 21. Nicolas Petit-Friere, third round pick, 2022. Jonah Jackson.

third round pick 2020 Wyatt Davis third round pick like in 2021 you had two day two picks in 2022 you had a third round pick in a seventh round pick in 2023 you had a first round pick a fourth round pick that I mean you guys would know better about Dewan Jones is draft process and everything like that but it seems like I was gonna say that does not seem like an Ohio State thing that he went in the fourth round so Dewan Jones goes in the fourth round maybe he should have been a day to pick as well

Stephen Means (38:22.003)

It didn’t seem like he was taking the draft process very seriously.

Andrew (38:32.888)

And then Luke Whippler is a six-round pick. And then you have Matt Jones this year, obviously. So I looked at that and I was like, you know, that just doesn’t make sense. And then you compare it to some of these other positions. I understand you play the most offensive linemen out of any position on the field. I understand there’s five of them. I understand that. Sending two out every year is pretty good, especially when you got a Paris Johnson level player kind of holding up a lot of the...

a lot of the weight here. I think we can compare this to another position, which was right there. There was like a clump of three for me that I really kind of had trouble differentiating. But yeah, I looked at the offensive line and I was like, you know what? There have been some I mean, look, I’m not going to compare their NFL careers because that’s not what this exercise is. But like, there are just a lot of dudes where like, you know what? You had four day two picks over the last four years and you had a first round pick in there. You got some late round guys.

That’s pretty solid. So stick taps for Ohio State’s offensive line because I had them third. I had them at a four star level.

Stephen Means (39:43.575)

So this is where recruiting and development are not always the same way. What you’re bringing in the door versus what you’re seeing exit your doors are not the same thing. Obviously the offensive line recruiting has been a question mark for Ohio State for a couple of cycles now. Obviously the offensive line has been a question mark for Ohio State for the last two seasons now. But the NFL draft development, Nathan.

I mean, it’s not it’s quality NFL draft development in terms of we’re going to turn you into an NFL player. Is our offensive line collectively when we play on Saturdays always going to be up to the standard? I don’t know. Right now, we’re still trying to figure that out. But to Andrews point, John Jackson, 75th to the Lions in 2020 as the lone transfer amongst his group, spent most of his career at Rutgers. Josh Myers, 62nd to the Packers in 21, Wyatt Davis, 86.

to the Vikings, Nicholas Petit-Frayer went 69 to the Titans, Thayer Mumford, 238th to the Raiders in 2022. That’s the only guy who’s not in the top 200, by the way. Paris Johnson, first tackle off the board, six to the Cardinals last year, Dwan Jones, 111th to the Browns, and Luke Whippler, 190th to the Browns as well, with Matthew Jones on deck this year. Maybe he drafted, maybe he doesn’t. But it’s just, you can say a lot of things about Ohio State’s offensive line.

over the past couple of years here. But what you can’t say, Nathan, is they don’t develop NFL players because clearly they do.

Nathan Baird (41:10.634)

Yeah, this was almost my pick instead of tight end. And I think it’s the right pick here. And it is just a consistency of volume, even if it hasn’t been the heights that you might expect. But again, it was reinforced when I went and compared it to what Michigan and Georgia have done. Now, Georgia’s had three first round picks in this run and they were all at tackle too, so that matters. And I would probably rate Georgia higher overall on its offensive line production. But then after that, it’s like,

fourth, fifth, couple sixths. Michigan has had also eight picks in this era, one first rounder, but everything else is third round or lower. So it’s not like there are other programs, even the other best programs in the country are not just churning out multiple first round picks every year on the offensive line. I think we sometimes get skewed by team success. It doesn’t always correlate

to NFL draft placement of things. So none of this is not saying that Ohio State’s offensive line development, especially doesn’t have to get better. It absolutely does. The other thing that’s also gonna get thrown off is, I know in the case of Michigan, and possibly in Georgia, I don’t know their roster as well, but all of this conversation about comparing them relative to those programs is gonna, especially Michigan is gonna change after this next draft, because Michigan I think is gonna have a few offensive line picks in this draft.

But in Ohio State, it’s probably gonna have none. I don’t think Matt Jones right now projects as a draft pick, maybe sixth or seventh round. But in terms of just consistency of putting guys in the NFL, and it’s also a position where when Ohio State does put guys in the NFL, they tend to overperform their draft status, I would say. Nicholas Perdue Frer started right away with the Titans. Now they’ve had some issues on their offensive line, but still he stepped in and started right away.

Stephen Means (42:56.547)

Yeah.

Nathan Baird (43:07.878)

I think, exceeding the fourth round expectation that was on him. Now, it’s gone the other way to why Davis didn’t work out. But Jonah Jackson is a third round pick. The Lions, I think, look at that and say they got to steal. The one that throws this off to is Luke Whippler. I think if Luke Whippler had stayed in the year, Luke Whippler made a mistake. Luke Whippler, I believe the coaches were telling him, was probably not going to go as high as he thought he was going to go in the draft two years ago. And he went anyway, or I guess it was just last year. He went anyway.

And was a sixth round pick. I think if he sticks around under the year, number one, I’ll say it’s office of line would have been a lot better this past year. Who knows how much that changes. It even just that final play against Michigan. And I think he set up to go higher in this draft. So that it looks like something that is, it looks like a mark against Ohio state that it had a two year starting center who went in the sixth round, but that was his choice to come out when he did and it was.

He was more the reason why he went in the sixth round than Ohio State was. So at this, it’s one of those things where I would put it here. It’s also the one that’s trending in the wrong direction though, because I don’t think we look at this and say, you know, like I said, nobody’s probably going to get drafted. We don’t think Matt Jones is going to get drafted this next draft, maybe, maybe late. And then 2025, like how high of a pick would Josh Fryer be? How high of a pick will Donovan Jackson be? I guess he has more upside.

Stephen Means (44:15.151)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan Baird (44:34.626)

but I don’t think we’ve seen the breakthrough that would tell you like, oh, he’s for sure a day two pick right now. I don’t know that that’s even certain right now, let alone like challenging to be a first round interior player, which is not always an easy thing to do. So it’s a position that I think, again, relative to what House 8′s done, relative to what some other even top programs have done, I would still put it here, but it’s the one that is the most in danger of kind of plummeting down this list.

if they don’t start getting back to their own standard here, which in your own standard, I mean, is just getting guys to go in the second and third rounds. You can put together pretty great offensive lines. Josh Myers, White Davis, Thayer Munford was seventh round pick. Jonah Jackson, third round pick like that. Twenty nineteen offensive line. And we all thought was so great. Nobody went higher than the second round. You had a seventh rounder there and it was still it.

The difference between that line and what they’ve been putting out here last year, possibly putting out there this year is pretty stark. They need to get back to that standard where it’s just NFL guys. Doesn’t have to be first round NFL guys. Doesn’t have to be the number one offensive tackle in a country coming to Ohio State in order for Ohio State to have a strong offense. But the gap between what’s acceptable and what they’ve been doing is growing.

Stephen Means (45:55.083)

Tidal was seven, excuse me, offensive lineman was seven amongst our Texas 2.7844 point 46% said three star, though I think, man, I wish we would have done this two and a half years ago. I think some of the fans, there’s a little bit of the fact that it’s trending down.

Nathan Baird (46:11.542)

Well, but Paris Johnson was last year. But Paris Johnson was last year. I think that’s not recency bias.

Andrew (46:12.492)

It’s recency bias, I think. Yeah, I think it’s a little recency bias.

Stephen Means (46:16.655)

That’s what I’m saying. I was here. That’s right. Paris Johnson was last year, but it’s like it’s Paris Johnson. And then it’s like trending downward since then. Once again, 6 1 4 3 5 0 3 1 5. Just send your thoughts of why you decided to vote the way you decided to vote in this. But I think recency bias probably isn’t the word. It’s more looking at what’s at what there’s

showcasing on Saturdays and not what the NFL views them as and not what they’re doing in the NFL. I think Nathan, you mapped it out perfectly. It’s like these guys are all getting drafted, but then also they go to the NFL and they kind of outplay their draft status. So that matters in this situation more than what matters of what they’re recruiting, I think right now. And the Luke Whippa one was I think one of the more intriguing ones I’ve seen before. Nathan, you’re up. Where are you going next?

Nathan Baird (47:07.63)

I just want to point out real quick that the Cardinals traded up last year to get Paris Johnson at whatever that was number six first Well still okay But still like they’re using extra draft capital to trade up and get him at six and he was the first offensive tackle off The board like we’re still talking about this isn’t this is just the Rhynde era. This is just the last few years Obviously lines been pretty prolific in terms of the NFL draft picks. I know

Stephen Means (47:11.051)

they did. After well, after trading down and then trading back up. That’s fair.

Stephen Means (47:21.568)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (47:29.612)

Yeah.

Nathan Baird (47:34.998)

That doesn’t mean that there aren’t issues that they have to correct with the current roster. But what they’ve done, I think, is deserves, it should rank higher than seven. Uh, but that begs the question of who I’m putting next. So I think here is a good place. I’m down between one of two positions. And I think I have to go with the one where the height was higher, even though I don’t know how much credit you give.

Ryan Day for Chase Young, because he’s the number two overall pick in the draft. So I’m gonna take defensive end here. There’ve been four picks in the Ryan Day era, but Chase Young going number two overall. And a guy who, if there hadn’t been a Joe Burrow quarterback in that class, I think might’ve gone number one overall. Like if you had a draft class like there was a couple years ago where teams are having to kind of like squint to decide who the first quarterback is gonna be off the board. The draft where the Jaguars took the Georgia end.

number one. Like that draft, like Chase Young is going number one. It’s like not even, there’s not a question, right? So he was that much of a of a talent. Now it’s another one that is also, you would say, maybe trending in the wrong direction. But again, imagine if we were having this conversation two weeks from now and Tumaloa and Sawyer were in this draft. Now you’d be talking about there

Nathan Baird (49:02.562)

Four of them potentially are like day two or better. So I think, I know that this is not living up to the Ohio State standard of defensive ends. The Ohio State standard of defensive ends at one point under Larry Johnson would have been a five star on this instead of a three that I’m giving him now. But that doesn’t mean that what they’re doing now isn’t still solid. And I think where we’re taking them, where we’re slotting them in this conversation is solid.

Stephen Means (49:31.367)

Just I group things by like their position coaches and who’s in charge of them. So just for the sake of adding that in there, let’s talk about defensive tackle here as well. Where are they at in relative to defensive end on your list?

Nathan Baird (49:42.486)

What is it? Are we breaking them separately?

Stephen Means (49:46.099)

No, we’re defensive line. We’re doing it as a whole. But you just said defensive end specifically. That’s why I’m asking.

Nathan Baird (49:49.07)

Oh. Oh, OK, I would still put that here then. I mean, I would still it would still be my pick. And we’re actually almost reinforce it, I guess, because we start when you think about my call again. Bruegler had my call is like a mid second round pick, which I don’t think we were convinced of when he came out. And when he came out, it was not necessarily about his draft status. It was more about his life status. And he’s been upfront about that. But I think he’s done what he’s had to do. And now they’re looking at him as like going in the 40s and

Stephen Means (49:53.268)

Okay, cool.

Okay. Yeah.

Stephen Means (50:04.803)

Mm.

Nathan Baird (50:18.706)

Um, good for my call, I suppose. We’ll see if that holds up. But if you include him as a second day pick, now you’re talking about that’s eight defensive in defensive lineman taken in, in since 2020. So eight in five years, and it’ll be a, a first round pick, a second round pick, a third, a fourth, and then, and then two thirds, I’m sorry, two thirds. Cause Dave on Hamilton, Zach Harrison, both being third round picks. Um, now.

The reason that still is only a three though is, and this is where I thought I saw the starkest contrast between the teams that Ohio State is now kind of finding itself chasing, either in actuality or theoretically. Michigan in this same time period, defensive line, three firsts, a second, and two fifths, but that’s a lot of power at the top.

on the defensive line for Michigan. And in Georgia, four firsts in the last four drafts, three at defensive tackle. And that is where I think you’ve seen the biggest gap right now between where this program wants to be and where some other programs have pushed themselves. And it’s weird to maybe think of interior defensive line or maybe defensive line as a whole, but it’s not. It controls the game so much.

Depending on whatever type of team you’re going up against, whatever opponent you’re facing, your defensive line can be the difference maker, whether it’s a team that runs a ball well, or whether it’s a team that wants to pass. And Ohio State now.

has had some gaps there between those two teams, those two programs over this short window, but where is Ohio State set up to have a potentially really special season? I think defensive line is on that short list for 2024. And maybe that’s the best indicator that this could be the one that finally gets there.

Stephen Means (52:21.067)

I think defensive line hit a rut for a little bit there because as you mentioned, J. Shung goes to Washington in 2020.

Stephen Means (52:30.999)

Davon Hamilton goes 73rd to the Jaguars in 2020 as well. And then Togyei, who comes out a year earlier than maybe he should have, but he’s also been open about why he decided to do that. It’s like why I can just develop and get paid to develop, which means that’s a guy where if NIL existed back in 2021, I think he would have been back in the Ohio State’s roster. Goes to the Browns, 132nd in 2021. Jonathan Cooper, 239 to the Broncos. Following year, you’ve got Tyreek Smith, who goes 158th to the Seahawks. And then Zach Harrison, 75th

Nathan Baird (52:45.918)

Yep. I think you’re right.

Stephen Means (53:00.933)

the Falcons last year. I think that’s where the trend up starts going back. Zach Harrison going top 100. It looks like Mike Hall might be top 100. He might be a day two draft pick. And then we’re talking about JT Twinmoloal, Jack Sawyer, Tyleek Williams. I don’t know, man. Ty Hamilton might just be awesome for another year in a very thankless job and then go test great and maybe sneak into the fourth round, maybe even sneak into the third round. I don’t know. Everything’s on the table here. If we’re doing this for a year from now, I think we’re having a very different conversation.

about Ohio State’s defensive line NFL development. And I think our techsters, Andrew, took that into consideration in a way that I wish they would have taken into consideration with the offensive line, just the past a little bit. But they were third, 3.3 overall rating, 46% gave them a four star though. Andrew, where was defensive line for you?

Andrew (53:49.752)

Yeah, defensive line was fairly close with offensive line. As you map this out, you know, I said, you know, not top 100 prospect, but probably right around there. That’s probably like the four star level that you’re talking about. The reasoning is because I compared Chase Young to Paris Johnson. And I was like, OK, you’ve got a top 10 guy. And then what’s next, right? Like, Chase Young, obviously, like, better pick. But like, what’s next? Then the offensive line.

beat him out. They had a second round pick. The defensive line has not since that time. They’re expected to with my call, but they had a second round pick. They had a couple third round picks. Like I just I thought that the I just thought that the middle part of the offensive line success was better than the defensive line success now. Were some players to make different decisions defensive line would have been third for me like if Jack Sawyer and JT to Malo out.

and Tyleak Williams were all headed to the, all headed to the NFL draft. This would have been, I think, a clear third. I think this would have been a fairly clear third for me, but they’re not there yet. They’re not there yet. Maybe the next iteration of this podcast can have defensive line higher. It’s just, that’s not the conversation, right? You know, offensive, like.

It is interesting because this is a little bit like the recruiting podcast that we do, Steven, where it’s, you know, we do the recruiting podcast and we’re like, Hey, like, you know, this position is doing really well right now, but there’s going to be a problem in two years if this doesn’t get rectified. Well, it’s like, okay, the offensive line recruiting actually in the, or the offensive line, like drafting in the past hasn’t been awful. And you would expect, you would have expected just kind of going in that the defensive like process for this would have been better.

But then you’re like, you know what, in the future, it’s gonna be really good. The offensive line is gonna take a dip. Defensive line is gonna take a step forward, but that’s not the conversation. And the defensive line for me, I just thought that when you map out not only what the unit has done, maybe expectations for Larry Johnson, right? Like you had one first round pick in Chase Young in the last five years.

Andrew (56:10.316)

And that’s it. You haven’t had another first round pick on defensive line, defensive tackle or defensive end. You haven’t had a first or second round pick, or you haven’t had a second round pick defensive end or defensive tackle. You haven’t had a dude go in the top 70 outside of Chase Young in the last four years. Like my call will probably buck that trend. That’s, that’s too long to go without a player of that caliber. You know, I’m not saying you need to send Chase Young’s out every year because

There are only a certain number of Chase Youngs that are walking the earth right now. There are only a certain number of people that are that talented physically and kind of on a football field, but you gotta have more success than this. So defensive line, I think because of the middle part of that where it’s like you look at the mid rounds and then because of the expectations, defensive line is fourth.

Stephen Means (57:04.116)

So Angie, you’re up with your next pick here. Where you going?

Andrew (57:05.248)

Yeah. This was so I was comparing these three. I mentioned offensive line defensive line and I was comparing these two to this other position because this other position has not had quantity, but they have had quality. And I just the last couple of years kind of soured me. I had corner next. You had two first round picks. Great. Jeff Akuda and Damon Arnett. Great. Congratulations. Twenty twenty first round picks.

Hip, hip, hooray. And then Sean Wade goes a year later and they got nothing. And could that have been different with Denzel Burke? Could Denzel Burke have made this look a little bit better? Indeed. Could that have changed things? Indeed. So I split up corner and safety because I wanted to talk about safety later. But...

Stephen Means (57:57.675)

I split up corner and safety too because they have two different coaches coaching them. So Ryan Dake split up corner and safety too.

Andrew (57:59.92)

Yeah. So I just three players at corner getting drafted is not good enough. Three players. I gave it a three star at corner because three player I understand you had two first-round picks and that’s great. Three players getting drafted is not good enough. No players getting drafted in 22 or 23 at corner is not good enough. Like I understand. You know,

Denzel Burt could have been the guy and like, you know, you kept him around and that’s great. It’s just this should be better. There should be more here. And if this isn’t a position where you’re only putting one on the field, you’re playing three corners now, like almost every game and you’re playing three corners out there. NFL teams love cornerback. They love having players that can defend the pass.

You know, this is, you know, this isn’t a tight end situation where it’s, oh, well, there’s only one of them on the field normally. And, you know, tight ends are not as valuable. No, this is an extremely valuable position. It’s like quarterback receiver, defensive end, corner, offensive tackle. Like these are the positions that you talk about in NFL that are get, that are extremely valuable. I say it is just not done well enough with this. So perhaps maybe I was a little too harsh on this because you did have two first round picks, but.

There’s just, the quantity needs to be way better. And I was just, I was really not impressed.

Stephen Means (59:33.027)

So Nathan, this is where I, me and the Texas, we were just completely off. The Texas gave him a 3.3, they were the fourth highest, almost 40% gave him a three star. I gave them a low two star. Yes, you have two first round picks. One of them is Damien Arnett, which was like a Las Vegas Raiders first round pick. And we all looked at it crazy at the time that happened. Jeff Okuda being the number three pick in NFL draft, that’s real. But you also haven’t had an NFL draft pick. It’s gonna be four years. Four Springs will have gone by before the next time you have an NFL draft pick.

three get drafted next year and two of them might be first round draft picks depending on if Andrew’s love for Davis and Ibn Osen is I guess retweeted by the NFL and Denzel Berg truly does jump up in the draft but you haven’t had a draft pick in four years.

Andrew (01:00:13.603)

It is.

Stephen Means (01:00:19.423)

And so I think that cancels out you having a first round draft pick when that’s what you do. And then the next guy you get drafted goes from being a year from being drafted. Some people are looking at him as like, Hey, he might be a top 20 draft pick. So now he goes 160th day. That’s Sean Wade to the Ravens. So now you don’t have any draft picks whatsoever. I mean, all it does is we felt this way about the cornerbacks for some time. And then for multiple years, the NFL retweeted what we were feeling about the Ohio state cornerback situation.

Nathan Baird (01:00:49.25)

So I would listen to someone who said that because they’ve had two first-rounders in this window, you have to grade them accordingly. I get that. I do think it’s also fair, though, when you’re talking about being inclusive of a coach’s tenure, to give more weight to these later years. And he’s an offensive coach, so right away, there’s only so much credit you can give for what he’s inheriting.

Stephen Means (01:01:09.039)

Hmm

Nathan Baird (01:01:18.342)

And then as you said, it’s two first rounders, but one was an overdraft. The next year, Sean Wade goes in the fifth round, but I know he played cornerback in 2020 for a house. He was a safety, he was drafted to safety. He has played safety in his sort of sparing NFL career to this point. And then nothing since then. Like you can’t, I would not have ranked them this high. I certainly would not have ranked them fourth because this has been the number one deficiency in this program. More than offensive line.

that we go from 2021 into 2022, the fact that you did not have an NFL ready cornerback on your roster was a glaring absence. And not only now that they have started to rectify that, are they getting back to having a defense that people respect, frankly. And there were some, obviously there were some issues in 2022 with injuries and things like that,

It’s also like there is a difference between when you have a guy who is going to grow into an NFL cornerback and when you have that guy on your roster right now. And I think the 2020, the 2019 team showed that like when you’ve got Jeff Okuda and Damon Arnett at their peak, that is different than when you have Denzel Burke trying to play through injury in his second year. And yes, he’s going off to the NFL someday, but he’s not an NFL cornerback yet.

These other two guys are months away from being NFL cornerbacks. They desperately needed that on their roster. Not first round picks, just anything. More fourth, fifth, sixth round picks. Like Kendall Sheffield, like what difference would Kendall Sheffield have made on the 2021-2022 defense? You know what I’m saying? Like that kind of mid-round pick at a position of critical importance was just glaringly absent. So I would have had corner lower than this, even though they...

Stephen Means (01:02:52.687)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (01:02:58.753)

Mm.

Nathan Baird (01:03:12.734)

It’s one of those things where like based on maybe you give them still a three grudgingly because they have those two first rounders there, but the complete absence of. Cornerback talent beyond that, at least quarterback draft talent beyond that. Yes, it’s going to get rectified in 2025. We’ll have a different conversation about this a year from now, I guess, or two years from now. But right now, as you look at it, it’s been.

on the very short list of the biggest reasons why Ohio State has not achieved everything it wanted to achieve the last three years under Ryan Day.

Stephen Means (01:03:49.719)

Cornerback, I think of any position we talked about, probably has the most potential to make the largest jump if we were to do this three or four years from now, just based on the way Tim Walton’s developing and recruiting, but you can’t go off of it. You have to go off of what has already happened in this situation. And for me, yes, to first round draft pick, but it’s almost like when you were in school and you had a couple of A’s, but on every other test you’re getting an F, those A’s are only gonna...

Bad grades hurt you more than good grades help you. That’s the thing I learned the most in school. And I think that’s how I looked at this. No draft picks for multiple years. That’s louder than two first round draft picks, especially since, and this is the only place I’m going to use this.

Those two first round draft picks were from your first year as a head coach. So you can accredit them to the guy before you as much as you can, the guy after you. So, well, with the other positions, there’s guys during your tenure along the way who have done this. I almost, you can almost say the same thing about wide receiver where it’s like, yeah, KJ Hill was 220, but, uh, since, but since like Ryan Day really got going here, it’s been only first round draft picks. You can use that same logic here, but it’s in a negative tone in this situation.

And Nathan, you’re back up. So far we’ve done wide receiver quarterback, tight end offensive line, defensive line, and now cornerback, which next for you.

Nathan Baird (01:05:16.938)

And just a final thought on the cornerbacks. I guess I would like, we have to go by what has happened. We all know that what Tim Walton is doing right now is setting this program up for a real run at cornerback. Probably starting in 2025 and maybe being, I don’t know if it’ll remanent, it’ll match what the receivers have done, but it’s gonna be impressive, I think. It’s gonna be very strong for at least a handful of years after that. But judging by just what has happened,

I think you have to rank them lower than, I certainly would not put them as the fourth best position of this era. The position that I would have taken next was linebacker. And it’s a little bit like tied into me in some ways that when you actually sit down and look at it, there’s been more success than maybe you would expect because it hasn’t necessarily been the...

success that screams at you. Now some of it is a little bit in the rear view and it’s you know Malik Harrison, Pete Werner, Baron Browning all go third round or higher in a two-year span. So that was early on in the Ryan Day era obviously Malik Harrison only from the 2019 season and then Werner and Browning both played in 2020 and then you’ve got a gap you do have a gap. Eichenberg in this next draft. I think Bruegler had him as a fifth round pick

That actually surprised me a little bit that he had that level of confidence in him. But if he’s picking you in the fifth round, that could mean anytime on day three almost. I think there’s a lot of volatility down there. But it’s the one that I think that there is been a little bit more consistency here. There’s also some tricky things here where like, Jonathan Cooper has turned out to be more of an offense, outside linebacker in the NFL. He was a seventh round pick as a defensive end.

Stephen Means (01:07:07.374)

Yeah.

Nathan Baird (01:07:11.074)

but the Broncos kind of got a steal there because he just made him an outside linebacker and now he’s been a really solid player for them for a few years. Don’t really factor that in too much, but the consistency there, like again, compared to Michigan in that same span, Michigan’s had one second and two fifths. You know, Ohio State is ahead of the pace of the team that it competes with the most. It’s not ahead of Georgia’s pace. Georgia’s had two firsts, a second, and three thirds, and a seventh, but like.

This and defensive tackle were the ones I looked at and were like, oh, that’s why Georgia did what it did and why Ohio State has done what it has done, which has been very, very strong, but not like wrecking the sport for a couple of years. Like Georgia did that by building its front seven with high NFL draft picks.

Stephen Means (01:07:59.519)

is doing some math here real quickly. I think Jonathan Cooper’s eight and a half sacks this past year for the Denver Broncos was as many as he had in his career at Ohio State in five seasons. But he was probably given his size. Well, let me finish this math here. Actually, one plus two plus two and a half was one plus three and a half. Nope. One and a half more sacks in five years at Ohio State than he had last year. But still, to the point of he was probably always a outside linebacker

Nathan Baird (01:08:13.25)

Probably.

Stephen Means (01:08:29.453)

He just played. He’s just from Ohio and grew up loving Ohio State, got offered there and played in a four or three defense in college football. But you probably could throw him in here, too. I think linebacker in another position that hasn’t been talked about yet were tricky for me because neither one has had a player drafted since 2021. But in both of those situations, the context for why.

I think made it okay that they hadn’t had anybody to draft it since 2021, because those spots went from being locked down by older veterans on their way out to young guys who have had the jobs for two or three years now, so they just weren’t draft eligible. And I think it’s the same at both of these two positions, while with cornerback holding it against them, it’s like, dude, you’re like throwing out new cornerbacks every single year.

Like, what are we doing here? You’ve had multiple corners who were dropped eligible. They just didn’t get drafted. So linebacker was, I had the other position higher than linebacker, but they were linked for me in the same location, the textures 2.58, they had linebacker second to last, and I just don’t think that they had that we’re thinking about it from that context, but they had

fit 45% of the people who did say three stars. So a lot of guys, a lot of three stars in the Sarah. Not a lot of two star, one stars in this area. 2.58 overall though. Andrew, where did you have linebacker?

Andrew (01:09:55.436)

Yeah, I had a linebacker right behind tight end. I had corner, then tight end, then linebacker. You know, the thing with corner for me that kind of put them up there was like, you know, it’s basically like you have a really nice steak dinner and then when you ask what they have for sides, the waiter walks away and you got nothing else. You got a really nice main course and then you got nothing else. And with tight end and linebacker, I kind of viewed it as like a dinner of sides.

And you just got a lot of like, you know what, this is solid. Like this is solid. You don’t really have like, you know, a game breaking tight end. Like they haven’t had a, you know, Jeremy Rucker was a, you know, the 101st pick. Like, and I understand kind of the things about, you know, is it even possible for that to be a thing in Ohio State? I get that, but just solid. And with linebacker, it was kind of the same thing. Like, you know, you get two thirds in a second round pick. That’s fine.

You could really see the gap like from the 2022 draft and the 2023 draft as to where Ohio State had to like rebuild its defense. Like you really could see that from, you know, kind of where you mapped it out in specific positions. I thought that this was interesting. I thought Malik Harrison was going to be really good with the Ravens. I was actually covering him when he got drafted. I thought he was going to be. Tastic. Yeah, I thought he was going to be good. I should have had you guys on a podcast. You should have had me on this one.

Stephen Means (01:11:17.867)

Hey, so are we.

Andrew (01:11:24.784)

I thought Malik, because they drafted Malik Harrison around after they drafted JK Dobbins. So I thought that Harrison was going to be really good in the NFL because they were going to pair him with Patrick Queen. I was like, this is going to be great. And then now they have Ro Khonsma. But yeah, the linebacker spot, it’s hard to look at linebacker because like I, it’s a little bit like a tight end because last year, I think his name was Jack Campbell, the

The Lions drafted a tight end or a linebacker like 19 overall out of Iowa. And everyone just pointed their finger and laughed because they drafted an offball linebacker in the first round. So unless you’re talking like a CJ Hicks type of guy, you know, a dude that is kind of in that mold, like a Sonny Styles type of guy that can play the run and can play the pass. You’re really not talking many offball linebackers that typically go in.

Nathan Baird (01:11:55.922)

Iowa.

Andrew (01:12:22.26)

first round, second round. So maybe I was a little bit too harsh with linebacker, but it was fine. You know, I thought that the linebacker, uh, you know, kind of over the last couple of years was, was solid and good enough.

Nathan Baird (01:12:37.342)

We’re getting into the stage of this conversation where we’re getting to positions that. Ohio State maybe hasn’t had great draft success, especially these last couple, three years, but they’re also not the positions at the NFL as you’re getting to Andrew necessarily values the most. And that’s true of linebacker. It’s true of, I think with running back, which is what we’re going to talk about here in a minute. It is not true of cornerback though. That’s why I couldn’t rate cornerback that high, like both for the NFL and for Ohio State.

Stephen Means (01:12:51.384)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (01:13:03.287)

Yep.

Nathan Baird (01:13:06.222)

Cornerback is a crucial, crucial position. And it’s the one where there has been just, like I said, just a chasm. So that’s why I think that it’s okay to rate, and that’s why I had tight end as high as I did, because I think relative to what the expectations are and what the need is, I think they’ve done fairly well. Linebacker is the one though that even after.

Nathan Baird (01:13:33.328)

That’s why I think, I just want to explain, like if you’re comparing them on paper.

Corner had the two first rounders in one draft. In two drafts, Aho State had a second rounder and two thirds at linebacker. And then in both cases, like nothing since. So why would you rate linebacker higher? To me, it’s because the need to produce NFL players at that position is so much greater at Corner than it is at linebacker.

Stephen Means (01:13:49.423)

Thanks for watching.

Stephen Means (01:13:52.988)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (01:14:04.631)

Corner’s louder when you don’t have it. It’s louder. I mean, there’s a reason why people draft cornerbacks the way they draft them. I also, linebacker is going to be interesting one as well. As Nathan mentioned, Danberg, we had Tommy Eichenberg as an early fifth rounder. Maybe Steel Chambers sneaks in somewhere as a guy who’s maybe a more past coverage guy later in that round. But then in later years, you’re talking Cody Simon coming down the line. Can CJ Hicks tap into something that makes it maybe a day too, maybe a first round pick, who knows? And then Stunny Styles,

Sonny Styles is an intriguing NFL draft prospect because the last guy who was him was Isaiah Simmons and he went in the top 10 and it didn’t work out and they had to change him to linebacker. But then also I think the very next year, Kyle Hamilton goes to the Ravens and it does work for him. He is still a safety. So it’s his athletic type is very hit or miss.

And how does the NFL go about evaluating Sonny Styles? And do they see him more as a hit or miss when he gets to that level? It’s like, who is six, four, two, 35, but can do a little bit of everything. Andrew, you’re up. We’ve talked about quarterback wide receiver, tight end, offensive line, defensive line, cornerback and linebacker. So far, where are you going next?

Andrew (01:15:20.448)

Yeah, this one, I took a little bit of creative license and I put running back as a low three star. Be better, simply be better. J.K. Dobbins, great. Fifty fifth overall. You know, this is a player that I think, especially when you kind of map out the 2020 draft. I mean, like Clyde Edwards, a layer went 30 second. That would have probably, you know, Dobbins probably would have been a better pick there.

I thought Dobbins probably would have been a better pick than like a D. Then you had like Jonathan Taylor, DeAndre Swift, Cam Akers like, does Dobbins go forth there? I don’t think so. I thought he was better than I thought he should have been a little bit higher there. Injuries have kind of wrecked his career. So like this should have been a higher player. You know what? Congratulations to Ohio State. And you got Trey Sermon and then you got Mayan Williams. And that’s not good enough. Like simply be better. I understand.

Trevion Henderson has been carrying a lot for you in the last couple of years. Played in 2021, makes it a little bit more difficult. I get it. That’s just not good enough. At corner, at least they had the bookends of you had two first round picks. At running back, I understand it’s a devalued position, but-

Your Ohio State, man, you should be running against light boxes all the time, and you should be having dudes just run free through the secondary every single week. Like this should be something that you’re recruiting well enough. This is something that Tony Alford should have been recruiting well enough to send dudes to the NFL. Now, Trayvon Henderson could have went pro. I get it. Trayvon Henderson could be on this list. And then all of a sudden, you’re like, you know what? It’s stoppings and then sermon, and then you have a gap. But Henderson was, and I, and I understand that argument, but

You have to be better than this. And for an offensive team like Nathan was kind of alluding to, the things that you’re sending to the NFL, it just has to be better than the 55th overall pick, the 88th overall pick, and then probably like an undrafted guy. That just, it can’t work.

Stephen Means (01:17:34.776)

So.

Stephen Means (01:17:38.063)

I’m trying to figure out how to ask this question, Nathan. I’ve been trying to figure it out.

all morning with running back and linebacker. Because, like I said earlier, I think there’s just a lot of similarities in the two positions where you went from J.K. Dobbins was already draft eligible in Ryan Day’s year first year. And then he goes in the next year, you go into the transfer portal, you get Trey Sturman and he has such an amazing end of 2020 that I think it got him overdrafted. He probably he probably should not have been a top 100 draft pick. And he was 88 to the 49ers in 2021. But then you bring in a true freshman

for the next three years, but also along the way, you’ve had Master T who doesn’t get drafted. Marcus Crowley has injuries that get in the way and he’s medically retired at this point.

Nathan Baird (01:18:18.286)

Thank you.

Stephen Means (01:18:21.655)

and Mayan Williams who was, or I think outplayed his recruiting ranking, but then outplay it to the point that you think he’s going to get drafted here. But then Trevion Henderson and Quincyan Judgans are both obviously going to get drafted next year. But then also you don’t know what’s coming after that. That whole collection of things, what do you just do with that information and how did you evaluate Ohio State’s running back NFL development?

Nathan Baird (01:18:45.838)

Well, again, I think this is where the context is important because it’s such a small window. The guy who has been your best NFL prospect at running back and has been that since 2021 is still on this roster. Like, so how many draft picks at running back should they have had in this period? Um, that’s where I kind of came back to. I don’t feel like it’s been.

Stephen Means (01:19:02.702)

Right.

Nathan Baird (01:19:15.71)

a it hasn’t been great, but I don’t feel like it’s maybe been a catastrophe because again, Trevin Henderson’s here. Trevin Henderson, if he had left, we’d be talking about this differently because you’d be saying, oh, like Trevin Henderson is projected to be a third or fourth round pick in this next draft and it would skew this a little bit. Maybe at worst, maybe I’m low on him. I don’t know. But to me, it’s kind of fine. And again, for perspective,

In this same period, George has been better. George said two seconds, a fourth and a seventh, but not crazy better like compared to a second and a third. Like it’s they’ve had more. They went to a multi-back thing in a more serious way than Ohio State did. And that’s why some of that happened. Michigan in the same period, a fourth and a sixth. And Blake Corum’s going to get drafted here next week. But he’s not being talked about as a first round pick. He might be a third or fourth round guy. So again, not significantly.

Stephen Means (01:19:47.741)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan Baird (01:20:09.954)

better than Ohio State. And again, if, if Trevin Henderson were coming out, then I think Ohio State would still have a better performance there in that same period against again, against a team that is more built to have a prolific running game. So I’m not putting this in the top half of positions, but nor, I mean, I would put it ahead of the cornerback performance because again, relative to what Ohio State needs from the position, that’s also important. They need, they need.

Stephen Means (01:20:32.463)

for sure.

Nathan Baird (01:20:39.19)

running production, I don’t think this is splitting hairs. They need running production, they need running execution and performance at critical times. But the way this team is built, I don’t know that you need high NFL draft picks at running back anymore. This isn’t a team that’s built around Ezekiel Elliott. It’s not a team that’s built around some of the guys that they’ve had in the past.

I think Ohio State wants great players at every position because that’s the standard here, but a lack of a NFL running back has not been the reason why this team has not achieved what it wanted in the past three years.

Stephen Means (01:21:25.239)

I think running back and linebacker got really young the moment Ryan Day took over the program. And so it’s skewing their NFL draft numbers because of that. Because, I mean, why don’t you have any running backs who have been drafted? Well, the only one who’s been draft eligible was Master T. And he was never going, he wasn’t going to get drafted. Everybody else they’ve been using for the last couple of years here had multiple years of college football left.

Mayan Williams was just draft eligible last year in 2022, and he was never going to come out as a three and done player. Trayvon Henderson coming back, throws that math off a little bit. But those two spots specifically, they got so young that the reason why they don’t have any draft picks is nobody was old enough to get drafted while the other spots they have. I think that’s an interesting point. It may be worth a discussion one day of. The standard is to go get the best player in the country at every position, but almost say

Who, which positions need five stars the most kind of conversation would be interesting to have in terms of how they get used on this roster, what’s required on them once they’re on the roster. That’s a later day conversation. Okay. So let’s wrap up with safety, which I’m sure, excuse me before I say that 2.9 two for running back was the texture score. That was six overall for 58%. Put them at a three star though. So high two star. Let’s go to safety.

They’ve had one draft pick in the Ryan Day era and it was Jordan Fuller going 199th to the Rams as Nathan shakes his head back in 2020. Josh Proctor could end that drought this year in 2024 if he gets drafted. Though as a six year safety, I don’t know if it’s a foregone conclusion that he’s going to get drafted and if he does, maybe he’s a seventh rounder as well.

Nathan Baird (01:23:17.378)

Bruegler had him on his list. Bruegler had him as one of the five hostage guys getting drafted. So that was a little surprising to me. It’s, I’ll let you finish this, but Fuller was an underdraft. So that sixth round is actually better than that. Like I think he immediately showed that was too low. But, and then we already said Shawn Wade was basically drafted as a safety, but not listed as one, so we won’t count him here. But it’s not just that it’s the only one in the Rhyme Day era. They’ve had one safety drafted.

Stephen Means (01:23:19.821)

Okay.

Nathan Baird (01:23:47.346)

since 2017. In the last six drafts, they’ve had one.

Stephen Means (01:23:52.492)

Mm.

Nathan Baird (01:23:52.93)

That’s one, one safety drafted. And now, Sean Wade, I guess, okay, that’s two. But really it’s one, it’s one. And one like true safety. And it’s not as critical of a position as cornerback is. But if you don’t see the correlation between what’s happened at the back end of this defense and where that has held Ohio State back at times, and what has, and that NFL draft stat.

I don’t know what to tell you. Like it’s, it has to be, it definitely ranks lowest on this roster. And I think it’s the only one that I gave it to.

Stephen Means (01:24:33.495)

So.

Nathan Baird (01:24:33.726)

Actually, I gave it a, actually, yeah, I gave it a two.

Stephen Means (01:24:37.063)

You gave it to, I gave it a one, one safety since 2017. Now I was giving it a one when I only went back to 2020. You just went back to 2020, 2017 and said there’s only been one drafted. Do you know how many safeties have started for them over the past five, six years? And only one of them has been drafted. And it was the year where you only played one of them. That’s ridiculous. Andrew from a recruiting aspect.

It explains why the top safeties in the country every year, they keep striking out because you’re going off to the top safeties in the country, which have habitually been in the South over the last couple of years, Caleb downs, um, KJ Bolden, and they’re going, where’s your safety draft picks? Let alone your first round safeties. Where’s your safety draft picks? Now, Lathan ransom maybe would have changed that. Had he not gotten hurt at the end of this past year and gone pro, he’s definitely going to change that next year. And then.

Caleb Downs is probably going to change it in two years. He’s gonna be a first round draft pick. But that doesn’t change what the recruiting has been so far. I’m assuming you had safety last. One safety since 2017. What’s your reaction to that?

Andrew (01:25:49.768)

My reaction is more to Nathan. Two stars? That high? That’s crazy. I gave it a one star.

Nathan Baird (01:25:57.654)

I think you have to, it’s, you have to, yeah, it was, it was a, it was a low two. I gave him like a little bit of extra credit because I think Sean Wade is really more safety than corner. And he was drafted by teams who wanted him to play safety. So that would be a second guy in a four year span, but you, and the other thing here to remember too, if Proctor hadn’t gotten hurt in 2021,

Stephen Means (01:26:24.983)

This is a different conversation.

Nathan Baird (01:26:25.226)

Who knows what the trajectory of his career is? He finishes that year, even if he’s not an NFL draft pick that year, it changes the trajectory of everything. And maybe he is in position to get drafted after last year instead of having to be what you’re pointing out, which is like a sixth year, 24 year old, whatever guy he is at this point. So I rounded up, but I’m not, it’s not a glowing too that I’m giving it by any measure. I also, but I did want to point this out.

too, because I think this is safety is the one where they’ve had both the most trouble getting elite prospects. Like Procter’s the last top 100 safety prospect they’ve had, I think, right? And that was 2018.

Stephen Means (01:27:12.275)

Yes, he is. That’s the last time they landed a top 100 safety. Yes.

Nathan Baird (01:27:17.502)

Right. But they’ve also, it’s the one position, one of the few positions where they also haven’t gotten fortunate with their development. Like the other thing hasn’t happened. You know, Chris Olave was not a high, highly ranked prospect, but he became a first round pick. You know, Cade Stover was not a tight end and he’s going to be a potentially like top four rounds NFL draft

Stephen Means (01:27:28.9)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (01:27:36.643)

Right.

Nathan Baird (01:27:46.818)

Bayer Munford, DeJuan Jones, these weren’t like, you know, elite prospects. You know, Jonah Jackson wasn’t even in the program. They get him through the portal or it wasn’t even the portal back then. Here’s a grad transfer comes in. You can look at almost every other position and see where a guy who was like more modestly ranked, Davon Hamilton, and turns into something more. So it’s been both that’s really sunk them here.

Stephen Means (01:28:09.09)

Yeah.

Nathan Baird (01:28:15.698)

It’s like it’s it is what you’re saying. Like they keep striking out on guys. Although that’s only been the last couple of years. A lot of the guys you’re talking about. Well, I mean, one of them is Caleb Downs. Like he’s still in college. Like all of these guys would still be not yet draft eligible that you’re talking about. It’s really the it’s a it’s a drought that started before that.

Stephen Means (01:28:37.027)

So our Texas 2.28, they were clearly the last group there was a decent gap between them and where the linebackers were. 32.43% gave them a two star, 28.38 gave them a one star in this situation, so clearly last.

Andrew (01:28:53.3)

Yeah, the thing with safety is with other positions on this unit, we have talked about trending up, trending down, arrow up, arrow down. We’ve talked about arrow up for corner, where it’s like, you know what, if we were to do this pod in 2024, it’s going to be higher, or excuse me, 2025 for the 2024 season, it’s going to be higher. We do it the year after, it’s going to be higher. It’s just going to keep going. Do it for the offensive line. It’s going to keep going down because then you’re going to just...

You’re gonna start lopping off these guys, right? Like Chase Young is not gonna be able to be counted as a defensive end. And if we did this next year, right? Like Chase Young’s not in that mix because 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, and then the 2025 drop. Because if we’re gonna do the last, I’m saying if we’re gonna do the last five years, Chase Young would have aged out of that like five year range. That, I know, I understand, I understand. But like you do kind of

Stephen Means (01:29:37.143)

Why wouldn’t he be considered in the- I mean, he still played for Ryan. Hey.

Stephen Means (01:29:44.195)

Oh, that’s oh, I didn’t do this in the last five years. I was only doing that because that’s how much yeah

Andrew (01:29:51.84)

run through that and like things can trend up and trend down. And safety has just never trended up. Right? Like, like safety, you have Latham ransom and that’s positive, but you have not had that moment where it’s okay. Well, this is a dude who is immediately going to be here and immediately going to be, you know, a stud, right. And, and Steven and I have talked about this on recruiting pods where it’s like, that’s where you start to feel the problem because

Ohio State’s going to be fine at safety in 2024. Ohio State’s going to be fine at safety in 2025. 2026, there’s questions. And that’s why recruiting matters. And it’s kind of the same thing here where it’s like, look, if you’re not going to recruit well and you’re not going to send dudes to the league like that, it’s going to bite you in the butt eventually. And it just has never really come around for Ohio State at safety. And I think if you go back and look at some recruiting, you know, kind of operations over the last couple of years, that would play itself out.

Stephen Means (01:30:50.563)

I think what might help in this is Ohio State’s had a bunch of variations of defenses that they’ve called. They’ve had I mean, they were single high when Ryan Day first took over. Then like halfway through the 2021 season, they were playing too high safety a bunch. And then obviously, they brought in Jim Knowles. Jim Knowles just has this job. It’s something crazy would have to happen for him to lose this job, whether he be him getting fired or leaving on his own. And so I think that might help.

is they’re playing this three safety system, they’re locked into it and they’re two years, they’re now in their third year into it where they have an elite defense where they’re not having to explain it to recruits anymore. Recruits can just see, this is how I fit into this, but also I know it works, Ohio State has one of the best defenses in the country and that might help on the recruiting trail, which in turn might help in terms of NFL draft development. If you’re already bringing guys in here who have NFL level potential and then can you just get it out of them

safety. It’s just out, out. Unlike some of the other spots, there’s no tangible evidence yet that there’s room to grow in a significant way. There’s just you have Lathan Ransom and you have Caleb Downs, Malik Hartford, we we’ve heard things, but we haven’t necessarily seen it yet. So you have to see it before you can have them in a conversation like this. So that’s our list. Our detectors order was wide receiver quarterback defensive line, cornerback

tight end running back offensive line linebacker safety.

our list will Nathan and Angeles wide receiver quarterback tight in offensive line, defensive line, cornerback linebacker, running back, and then safety in terms of ranking Ohio state’s NFL draft development since Ryan day took over the program in 2019. This is the first day of a couple of draft things we’re going to be doing this week. So get the text 6 1 4 3 5 0 3 1 5 a lot of fun stuff. Then the NFL draft is on Thursday on ESPN and on plus other networks as well.

Stephen Means (01:32:45.241)

just on ESPN, but it starts at like seven o’clock. We’re expecting Ohio State to run a first round wide receivers to continue, though we’re also expecting a couple of other guys to get drafted throughout the week. 31 draft picks so far in the Ryan Day era, potentially could get up to 40 by Saturday evening, depending on how the draft goes. So get the text 614-350-3315 for Nathan Baird, for Andrew Gillis, I’m Stephen Means, and that was Buckeye I Talk.

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